Jim Johnson, of State of Sunshine.
We should all care about torture. It is an act of violence that is morally unacceptable. The Geneva Conventions make clear torture is illegal.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
The U.S. Constitution grants Habeas corpus. The U.S. Supreme Court decision Boumediene et al v. Bush allowed detainees to file Habeas corpus petitions. The Eighth Amendment forbids the use of "cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Torture fits the definition of unconstitutional treatment of prisoners. Boumediene does not give detainees the same rights as American citizens. Conservatives argue it is okay to waterboard detainees because they are foreigners. Xenophobia trumps conducting interrogations that would produce quality intelligence.
The question that should be asked is why conservatives care so little about torture. The evidence is torture interrogations did not produce the intelligence the Bush administration claimed. Conservatives rightfully bash repressive regimes for torturing political prisoners. Why is torture good if the United States does it? Repressive if done by China.
Conservatives use the argument of jihadists beheading prisoners as evidence the Bush administration tactics are justified. Conservatives made the simplistic argument two wrongs make a right. Are we suppose to start beheading detainees because terrorists do? The question is asinine. As is waterboarding Khalid Sheik Mohammed 183 times and expecting new information.
The United States has sent Maher Arar sent to Syria to be tortured. He was released because the CIA mistaked him for someone else. Arar was held and tortured in Syria for ten months. Not only do we torture like repressive regimes - we outsource work to these countries
I hope that answers Jim Johnson's question.
1) The Geneva Convention applies to nations at war. It does not apply to groups like Al Qaeda.
ReplyDelete2) Constitutional protections only apply in the US (and while the courts disagree, I would say they should only apply to citizen and non-citizens here legally).
3) The people being tortured don't deserve any sympathy. They are monsters who gave up any moral high ground when they killed thousands of people.
4) Finally, we are an "eye-for-an-eye" society. We have the death penalty in place and we use it. Hard to say capital punishment is fine but torture isn't.
No, it doesn't answer my question. Why do they care so much? It's not happening any more ... and I could care less if it were.
Maher Arar is back in Canada and suing the United States. The Canadian government cleared him. The Bush administration never officially denied the CIA abducted him. Arar was tortured. He deserves our sympathy. He is not the only wrong person detained.
ReplyDeleteYou make an argument about an eye for an eye. This is what torture debate has boiled down to for conservatives. The arguments about quality intelligence doesn't exist.
Crimes committed by U.S. citizens at GITMO fall under the U.S. federal and military laws. Both have to obey the U.S. Constitution. We placed those detainees at GITMO. Many of them are horrible human beings. We can't bring them to a U.S. military base and then argue U.S. laws don't apply.
Why do I care? I'm sickened by the mkurders and torture. I'm bothered torture is being used as a recruiting tool for terrorists. I'm sick of the years of lies about how the U.S. doesn't torture. Now torture supporters that denied waterboarding argue it works. No it doesn't.
We are either a nation of laws or not. Laws have to apply to people we can't stand. An eye for an eye will not work.
It seems the major problem is not whether torture is good or bad, I think most conservatives would agree that torture is not necessarily a good thing. If the information can be obtained other ways it should. The problem is that there is no clear definition of torture. If you use this “Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment” as a definition it would eliminate pretty much all forms including sleep deprivation, loud music, bright lights, American Idol..you see my point. I don’t consider waterboarding torture there is no permanent damage, in my view it is a form of mental abuse much along the lines of sleep deprivation and loud music. The Rack, The Iron Maiden, Electro Shock are some of the things I consider torture
ReplyDeleteI don’t consider waterboarding torture there is no permanent damage, in my view it is a form of mental abuse much along the lines of sleep deprivation and loud music.Waterboarding is torture. Drowning someone can potentially kill them. The OLC cited the work of James Horne to use sleep deprivation. Horne states his work was misunderstood and can endanger the life of the detainee.
ReplyDelete"With additional stresses as in ‘coercive techniques’, the situation for the sleep deprived victim becomes deplorable, as the mind and brain under these circumstances trigger the body’s defences to create a physiological ‘alarm reaction’ whereby, for example, various stress coping hormones are mobilised and prepare the body for possible trauma, even blood loss. I emphasise that this alarm reaction is not present under ‘pure sleep loss’ as I have just described. Prolonged stress with sleep deprivation will lead to a physiological exhaustion of the body’s defence mechanisms, physical collapse, and with the potential for various ensuing illnesses. We don’t know at what point this latter phase would be reached with ‘coercive techniques’, but to claim that 180 hours is safe in these respects, is nonsense. Moreover, whereas physical pain may not be particularly apparent even at this stage, the mental pain would be all too evident, and arguably worse than physical pain."
James, have you even read any of the memos? Did you even know who Horne was?